The River Jordan

[liralen]

Religion warning, here. I'd say go on, if you're not interested, but I'm not going to bother with the tag stuff.

John and I talked about the possibility of baptizing Jet for a while, on the order of a year. I have odd hang ups about baptisms mostly because my Catholic background, and I thought, for the longest time that I wouldn't have Jet baptized because it really is his choice if he wants to be a Christian, in the long term. And, from a Catholic background, the moment the water touches you, I think of that as a binding contract with God, from that point on you're judged by Christian rules for your afterlife (what there may be of it). Period.

John has a very, very different take on it. For him, a baptism is most of a symbolic ritual that allows everyone in the community to know that this kid is to be considered part of the community, and for the kid to know that they now have a bunch of people that have promised to support, love, and care about them.

Talk about differences of perspective.

It helped to talk with our pastor, and go over, in detail, the elements of their service. Admittedly, after having attended a few baptisms here, I had a good idea of what to expect, including, what was very important to me, the explicit wording that while we could encourage the joining of this particular and peculiar sect, that in the end it really was Jet's choice as to whether or not he would, for himself, affirm the baptism at a later date. So our congregation's understanding of it was the same as John's, and under those understandings and precepts, I could partake and not feel like it was some huge pressure for Jet to conform to Christian ways.

Though, the more I experience of this life, the less I see it as conforming to just about anything... So we went ahead with it. On Jet's Birthday. With John's parents, as they happened to be here to help baby sit Jet while his normal caregiver's on a week long vacation. In front of a nice, big crowd. With eighteen kids that were in front for the kids' message. And, surprises of surprises, it was with a small phial of water from the River Jordan.

Michael's mother-in-law had given it to him a long time ago, and he'd misplaced it and, by accident, found it last week in a drawer and remembered what it was. So he used it on Jet.

So Jet was baptized with water from the River Jordan, which amuses me twice. I mean... hey... it's Jordan touching my life again!! And then it's also the whole thought of Jet lucking into the serendipity of baptism with the same water that baptized Jesus. That latter is kind of cool.

Comments

[clauclauclaudia]

My parents are both lapsed Catholics. They might not word it that way but I'm comfortable with it as a description of people who I'm pretty sure haven't gone to confession since before I was born. ;-) We were over at a cousin's house for Christmas and they are visiting different churches, trying to choose one based on location and what the kids' programs are like, and choosing among several denominations they feel comfortable with.

I took the conversation in stride as one of many discussions of religion that don't really touch me very closely. But my parents were boggling over it after we got home. It is so alien to their experience, where you live in a (Roman Catholic) parish and that's your church and that's all there is to it.

[liralen.livejournal.com]

Mmm... yeah, that's a good reflection of my own cultural shock as I keep exploring this Congregational thing. *grin*

[marith.livejournal.com]

Happy belated JetDay! That is really cool, Jet being baptized in Jordan water, for both reasons. And yay for your congregation, being that open and welcoming.

Not that I know much about Catholicism...but binding a small kid to The Rules long before they can have any say in the matter sounds like a sacrifice, interpreted that way. And just as an oath under duress is not valid, the kid is not responsible to keep to that choice forever. Don't even Catholics have a confirmation ceremony,that kids go through when they're older? (Though probably in practice that isn't much of a free choice either.)

(Not referring at all to Jet, in case that wasn't clear, but the way it sounds like it was for you back then, maybe.)

[liralen.livejournal.com]

Oh! Yeah. Catholics do have confirmation ceremony and everything. Not that I got that when I was a kid. Plus I have a lot of really bad baggage where the Catholic church is concerned. It's all mixed up, too, with some Baptist stuff that my Mom dabbled in as well. I've also absorbed a lot of old folk tales, with babies being limboized if they aren't baptized.

I'll admit, freely, that it's my own take on it, not any official doctrine.

And I'll also admit that for most of my life I believed, firmly, that anything having to do with any Church was ultimately unfair. Again, a take from the wierd, guilty mix of stuff my Mom did with respect to churches. So this whole guilt-free (fat-free?) Congregational take was just really different for me.

[agrimony.livejournal.com]

I've always thought that the point of baptism was for the family and community to join together and accept a child into their midst, while affirming for themselves that they intend to raise the child to lead a moral life.

One of the sacraments a roman catholic can receive is Confirmation. At a relatively more mature age, the child can theoretically make an informed decision to confirm their committment to the Roman Catholic church. I've been through confirmation and came out the other end of it with a Kathleen added to my name. Unfortunately, I think I was still too young at the time of confirmation to really make an informed decision regarding whether to do it or not (not to mention that preparation for it took place during religion class at my school).

I have no issues with the Catholic religion. I think it has some beautiful premises and goals. I have huge issues with the Roman Catholic Church as an organization. I think it has some great, gaping flaws.

All that said, I've always found baptisms to be uplifting and beautiful ceremonies. I'm glad that Jet is involved in such an open and caring parish, and that he has such wonderful parents who truly care about giving him options and choices for his future. You guys are inspirational, Liralen.

[liralen.livejournal.com]

Cool! It's very cool to know your understanding of it and it's good to know that there are some parishes that are doing their job of educating their kids right. I have to agree that I think that Confirmation, as it's practiced, is still too young for someone to really have the power to choose what they'll do.

I'll also admit that I never really got the chance to do that part of it, so never really saw the choice. Which is probably why I have the view/opinion that I do about the whole thing.

Maybe I should take a confirmation class at this church? Hee. That would be kind of cool to do.

I have vast issues with my past experience with the Roman Catholic Church; but I don't have any issues with anyone that practices Catholicism, oddly enough. I have problems, also, with all organized Churches, even with the Congregationalists; but it's somehow oddly comforting to have the Congregationalists at least apologize and try to make restitution for their mistakes.

It's interesting look at it all, though, as it's all very much tied with personal experience, I think.

And, at least, Jet's baptism was a good experience, on the whole. Yay!

[ocean-song.livejournal.com]

Congratulations! What a lovely post. Yeah, even though I dont have kids, I've been putting lots of thought into this whole issue for when I do. I was raised Catholic, but do not continue to practice it. Still, I have found being raised with a religion to be one of the most treasured things I carry with me from childhood. Even if kids later go another way, I think its great for them to grow up with the feeling of community, with an appreciation of ritual, and a sense of confidence and faith beyond what they see with their eyes. I think it helps people to be more balanced, have more strength in themselves, and to be more open to possibilities and everyday miracles.

For what its worth, I taught CCD (i dont know what its called these days - sunday school? catholic studies?) and my understanding of baptism is the same as your hubby's.

The only thing I really have trouble with baptism is the assumption that children are born with sin and that this cleanses them/guarentees them a place in heaven. Yes, we are all born human, with the ability to make mistakes and learn. But I hardly think that is a Bad Thing. A lot of changes have come down in the church lately, so I have hope. After all, the pope finally said there is no such thing as hell. It seems that children will be raised with a much kinder, gentler spiritual view. I like the newer interpretation about welcoming the child into the community and agreeing to care for the child. I hope that is currently being taught.

[liralen.livejournal.com]

Yay! It is worthwhile to know other people's experiences and takes. I really like knowing what it felt like for you to be raised in a faith. It's very neat to know more about people who have had good, supporting experience with religion and with the whole structure and how their kids are taught.

I need those kinds of examples to help make sure that Jet gets the same kinds of support, self-confidence, and faith in Existance as well as in himself.


I had a much worse time of it when I was growing up, as the leaders of the various churches we attended had a far, far more guilt-based approach, and were consigning pretty much everyone to Hell other than a perfect few. And no girls get into Heaven, ever. Of course, this was mostly through Chinese-speaking Catholic and Baptist churches, that all get mixed up in my head. There is way too much material in the Old Testiment to bolster the girl-hate inherent in old-fashioned, mainland China type social leanings.

Oddly enough, I've been talking, lately, with a bunch of American couples that are adopting Chinese girls from orphanages in China. One couple told of this horrifying story where a whole group of prospective American couples were being herded onto a bus to go somewhere, and they were all told, in no uncertain terms, that the bus would NOT EVER STOP. They just kind of nodded and agreed, but then, as the bus barrelled along, they saw THREE baskets in the middle of the road with babies in them.

The parents had left the babies out in the middle of the road, either for someone to stop and pick them up, or to be hit by a car and die quickly so that the parents wouldn't be guilty of killing the child themselves.

The Americans, by the end of the ride, were hysterical.

I would have been, too. But it's a pretty graphic demonstration of the old-style attitude towards girls in China, and my problem is that a bunch of Chinese men tied that same throw-away attitude to Old Testiment teachings and did their best to twist New Testiment teachings in the same direction, and I ended up hating everything having to do with Christianity for a very, very long time.

It's very cool to know about the pope saying there is no Hell! I hadn't known that, at all. Pretty cool.

I agree, totally, about hoping that the newer interpretation has the greater weight. I'm sure it makes more sense to a lot of people. It's cool to know that it even exists, for me.

thanks!!

[rmd.livejournal.com]

that's really very not-catholic at all, there is it...

happy jet-day!

[liralen.livejournal.com]

*grin* I guess not.

A very Happy Jet has now had six days of parties, presents, and having "Happy Birthday" sun g to him repeatedly.

*grin* So I think he had a very happy day.